Creating Communities with Chris Marr – Episode 6

Enough small talk . . . let’s talk “Creating Communities”

Full Episode Transcript about “Creating Communities” is Ben M Roberts and Chris Marr

Ben:

Hi Chris and welcome to the podcast.

Chris:

Thanks very much. It’s good to be here, Ben. Thanks for inviting me along.

Ben:

That’s alright, it’s an absolute pleasure and I’m so glad I was able to get you on. So for the guys listening at home, who are you?

Chris:

Yes so, my name is Chris Mar. I’m 36 years old. I live on the east coast of Scotland. I grew up here, I lived here all my life. Went to school, university here and I’m started my business here as well. So I’m kind of like born and bred Scotsman. East Coast based up in Dundee, just north of Edinburgh. I run a company called the Content Marketing Academy, which is a company that teaches entrepreneurs, marketers, business people. How to master the principles of content marketing and use it to for business growth and to get customers. So we’re trying to link those two things together and instead of getting away from the sort of fluffy content marketing set of things into content that actually gets results for people. So we work with a whole range of different people, we haven’t got a niche as such. Lots of different industries, lots of different types of people from all over the world. Every day is like teaching and training and communicating with people. You know one of the things that people normally confuse us with, is a marketing agency but we’re not a marketing agency. We don’t do any marketing for you, we spend most of our time teaching and training people. And we find that’s more valuable as a marketer is to see the impact you can make through teaching.

Ben:

I mean I love this. As a fellow Celt, I always love to support anyone else who’s coming from one of the Celtic nations and seeing the stuff that you’re doing. That’s really why I wanted to get you on the show because I’ve heard so many good things about the teaching, the training and the event you’ve been putting on at CMA. And so when we started chatting, I wanted to talk to you about creating a community. I understand that’s what you’ll be talking to me about today.

Chris:

Yeah so, I guess this kind of comes back to, I mean there’s a whole backstory to this. But community is like for us, I don’t really use the word community so much actually. I know that it’s a word that a lot of marketers use, community management, building a community. People are even told, I guess by marketing people, to start a community and all of that kind of thing. But I think it’s it really depends on what you’re trying to do. For us, community made sense because our audience, this is the key, the paying customers were telling me it’s a thing that they wanted. So, the reason that we even start a community in the first place or even thought it was something that would be a valuable part of our business, something that was actually going to drive our business forward is because we saw the behavior in our audience. Not because we you know we weren’t we weren’t it being other way around you know. Wasn’t me trying to coax me audience into doing something, it was them telling and they showed the behavior. So I think that was that was absolutely key for us to see that, this could be a viable business model for us, building everything around that.

Ben:

It’s interesting because, from what I gathered from what you’ve just said then. Essentially this creating a community for you, wasn’t by someone saying you need to need to build community, you creating all this engagement and create all these fans. That it was actually just your community members as they were before, just your members of the CMA or your audience, essentially just your customers. From that it was just a natural process, so is that the way forward then? Should people be actually trying to create communities or is it something that should just be a natural process.

Chris:

Yeah, no one needs to build a community. So I think you know it’s most small business owners, who I guess is probably part of your audience I would imagine and don’t need to like start a community. You don’t need a private Facebook group, you don’t need to have a membership site, you know you don’t need to have any of that to actually have a business. I think the key thing here is, to see having a community is a business model right. So I think I’m what people have misunderstood that membership businesses like what we have and community type businesses are business models. So it’s not like the community is like an add-on to what we do, it is the business. So I think that, just to kind of like cut through this sort of a myths I guess or those sort of misunderstandings about it. I think most business people in business today, do not need to build a community but perhaps need to be part of one, if that makes sense.

Ben:

And that is exactly what, I sort of almost wonder. I think you may as well just drop the mic and walk off next. That’s almost exactly what I wanted, from this podcast. When I hear all these things about people saying create a community. And it was a case of, “Oh build the business”, “create raving fans”, “get everyone to be talking about your business all time”, “set up Facebook pages, Twitter pages, private groups and stuff”. When actually that seems like, it’s almost a bit of a waste of time really. When actually the core part of your business then can be neglected over something that may or may not actually be beneficial. Whereas if you go from a model, where it’s actually part of the structure the business plan that is the moneymaker in a sense. Because if businesses don’t make money, they don’t survive. And actually then, if a community is part of that innate structure of the business, it’s going to become more successful and more useful and grab more longevity.

Chris:

I mean, there’s lots of marketing agencies out there, that don’t need to build communities. There’s lots of HR companies out there, that don’t need to build communities. If you’re on fire safety, you don’t need a community. If you’re a first aid trainer, you don’t need the community. If you don’t need it, you know you don’t need it.People have become, you know there’s lots of successful businesses out there, that don’t have communities. So I think, if someone says to you need to build a community, I would say like do I? Do I really need to build a community to get business because we can get customers, we can get clients without the community aspect. I think it’s a serious consideration when you’re thinking about starting a community. It needs a lot of time attention dedication effort and it’s not it’s not something to be sort of just decided upon a whim.

Ben:

So, is there a place for businesses who don’t necessarily have it in there as their core membership model. Like an example used earlier, is it worth any of them actually building a community at all? Is there any benefit to people, so if someone says I still actually want to do it, are there any benefits ?

Chris:

Yeah, the benefits are massive. So it’s an amazing business model, there’s no doubt about that. That’s one of the major reasons we started taking it seriously, was just understanding how powerful the business model is. So for example, we went from being an agency and consultancy company to a membership business model and those are just entirely different. So in one case, you’ve got high value contracts. You’ve got really big deadlines. You’re constantly working for someone else, all the marketing you do is for other people and they don’t really care. They just want to make sure that you do the job that you said you we’re going to do. You can lose clients, try to get clients as hard losing them as you know relatively easy, keeping them as difficult. And you’re constantly up against it right, so you can run around time-released wrestlers and sleep. You don’t know where the next clients coming from. So it’s a really hard model to run versus like a high volume low price membership model relatively on subscription. Where you’ve got much more flexibility sustainability, you can plan effectively. When you’re busy because you’ve decided what your work is going to look like. And you’re serving people who actually care about the work that you’re doing. That want to learn, that want to be part of it. So the pros and cons list of membership versus agency, are probably just as long as each other. It really depends on the type of business you want to run and type of lifestyle that you want to have. I think those are the key fundamentals for me anyway, when it came to deciding that community and membership would be a part of me business model.

Ben:

Yeah, I think that’s an interesting point. Looking at how it’s down to the how you want to run things. And how you’re not just your business is set up necessarily but how you want to run your lifestyle.

Chris:

yeah

Ben:

That’s a really important part of it. If your lifestyle isn’t geared up to it then it’s almost pointless in itself. Because it’s not going to have that longevity and you’re not going to carry it on. I mean, a community is for life not just for Christmas. It takes a lot of time in for a long period.

Chris:

Yeah, the biggest thing is when you come out of like a corporate lifestyle. The key the norm, what the normal thing to do, is

to become a consultant right. It’s to go from doing what you’re doing in filter employment, to then help other people do the thing as a consultant, wherever that might be. But there’s a lot of reasons why that’s really a bad thing to do although it seems like the natural thing to do. So when you’re thinking about your business and how you run your business, you don’t have to conform to the way that’s always been done or the way that even your competition run them business or have a business model. You can run your business any way you really feel that you want to and there’s lots of different types of business models but the first thing is you have, this is something I figured out over the years, you have to define what kind of day you want to have. What kind of life you want to have. I want to be able to pick the kids up from school. I want to be able to have a nap in the afternoon. I want to have my mornings to myself. I want to make sure, all my calls are on a Tuesday. There’s a lot of things that I want to do in my life, that should not be dictated by my business. My business is here to serve me not the other way around.

Ben:

Yeah, no that makes a lot of sense. It’s going to fit in around you. Yon need to be able to spend time because creating a community is time intensive as well. I guess it’s time intensive depending on where you want to put in that time and actually, how your community structured. Because no two communities are the same. So with that, my mind’s gone train of thought, what are some of those common threads that you’ll find. Because you said each community is different and you like your flexibility. Someone else may not want that flexibility and may want to work all hours. Other people may have lots of employees, they build a community. But what’s really sort of common threads in successful community building?

Chris:

Common threads and successful community building. So one of the first signals that you’ve got great community is when people are having conversations with each other, when you’re not there. That’s a good sign of a strong community, so you don’t have to be there all the time to help people with their questions and to add to create content and conversations. Right that’s usually a good signifier that things are going well. when your community tell other people about the community, I think that’s a really good signal. It shows that you’ve got something really valuable there. You know a community’s value is the sum of the all it parts, opposed to any one person. So those are really good things, I think that I would say are like the signals that you have something to be proud of. When other people tell other people about it and when the community is taking care of itself and having conversations with between each other when you’re not there

Ben:

Does that depend upon you as the community creator or does that depend upon the individuals themselves in the community? How much impact do you have as a community creator on being able to allow those other individuals in the community to create this conversation amongst themselves. Or is it just innately that they like that subjects, they’re going to talk about it anyway. Do you have an impact in it?

Chris:

Yeah massive impact, it’s very deliberate, it has to be by design. So, for example, you in the early days of starting a community, you have to put a lot more effort at the start then you will say, a year down the road. Because you’re having to really encourage people and educate people and teach people how to behave in the community. So you can reward different types of behavior, you may have to encourage different types of conversations taking place. But, yes, you have a massive impact on how that shapes and it usually comes down to the creators philosophy and how they want to run the community. You know I wrote a manifesto about a year or so ago. That was a 5 or 6 thousand-word essay, that outlined exactly what the community was all about and what kind of behavior were we really looking for they? I never told anybody what to do it? It was really how it was really my philosophy of community and if people reap that they’ll get a feel for it and they’ll know exactly what they need to do to get the most value out of i

Ben:

That’s what I really want to encourage people to do. Take a look at the manifesto for CMA and I’m going to put it on the in the show notes as well as to make sure everyone goes to have a look at it. Because it’s really interesting to see some of the key concepts and key messaging. And some of the way, it’s built in the way, it’s worded I think it’s a really interesting document.

Chris:

Thanks yeah, I think it’d be cool for people to read that. It’s

a good understanding of how I think community works. In the community, that we wanted to build. So I think that you know, coming back to your original question. That I think you have as a leader, that’s essentially what you are as a community creator, your leading people and they’ll have the conversations. You can shape the behaviour, you can shape the environment, you can shape the culture and you can’t really define it but you can shape it for sure. You definitely have an impact on what’s happening in there.

Ben:

And how’d you decide, where you take the direction of that then? Obviously there’s a time where the customers or the community members will start leading the conversation themselves. Now do you deliberately go straight from the off and say this is exactly what we want this community to be. Or do you sort of try and leave it, a little bit more free-flowing. Because obviously some communities will obviously be really tight centered around a certain topic whereas other ones it could be a bit more wide-ranging. How do you decide, in your community, which sort of route you want to go down?

Chris:

Yes, so there’s a bit both actually. We kind of standoff a lot from conversations, I don’t jump into conversations immediately and let them kind of unfurl themselves. Get people, get involved. And then I’ll really pick on I, especially, look out for trending conversations like popular threads and common themes and those are usually the things that focus on. So, I mean, an example would be like a really sort of like off-the-wall example would be like what the content marketing Academy right. So you can imagine that a lot of the conversations we have are about content marketing, blogging, videography, vlogging, podcasting you know content creation. and the process that goes with that. We also talked about things like leadership, communication, sales you know website. See there’s lots of things we talk about, they’re kind of one step removed or off to the side. But like an off-the-wall example would be something like we’ve got a channel or a thread or a topic I guess in our forums called equality. Because at halfway through last year, it started to become a really big conversation everyone was having about equality. Everything that’s happening in Hollywood and all the racism in the world and everything like that. I felt like that was a conversation that we needed to be having in us community as well. In order to have that converse to those conversations privately, to help us have those debates publicly better. So you know, that’s an example of how a community can be shaped in different ways just by looking at what the common threads are within and with the community conversations. I think if we people came into CMA and all we did was content marking, they would get so far and then we would have the belief because there was nothing else for them. So we try and see like a broad range of sort of like foundational skills or foundational conversations or foundational and we call them principles that we can teach and we can discuss that really holds interest and the sort of like is not limited by time.

Ben:

Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting point. It’s trying to make the community, not let it’s almost take its own course. But it doesn’t have to be specifically about a very narrow range of topic. So again because people get bored and people once they’ve read about content marketing so many times, it’s almost like well the next piece is going to be about content marketing. And occasionally you’ll get those extra snippets of something, a little bit different but really the core content of it is the same. So adding in these other conversations, really help bring up the engagement of it. And I think there’s a fantastic way of making that community, a much stronger and tighter knit group as well. Because people start engaging on a level that’s beyond necessarily what they initially joined the community for.

Chris:

Yeah exactly and the community is why people stay at the end of the day. You know they come in, they learn. You know content marketing is amazing right, it’s an amazing set of skills to learn, it’s an amazing philosophy and culture for business growth but on its own. You know it works better when it’s added in with lots of other things like leadership and sales. And you know just for sake of argument, there’s like there’s a couple of major other topics that go very little so lend itself to content marketing as well. And with along, I think business owners can do far better you know being educated in a broad range of skills.

Ben:

Yeah, my mind sort of go another way now. Okay I can see how you’re building this community now. And how you’re trying to create in this conversation. And lets them flow naturally. And sort of how you can sort of widen the widen the debate almost to make it more engaging group to be a part of. But then as a community builder then, if you’re building your own community, what are some of the common pitfalls or issues that people will find when they’ve been in community? Because I can imagine straight from the off, when the hardest things to be from my opinion from the outside. Is looking going, I’m posting content out there but people aren’t engaging. How would you deal with things like that and what some of the other issues that the people will face?

Chris:

And so let’s think about this. There’s yeah, it’s like every business right. There’s you know a lot of people will say to you, I’ve had this before in the past as well but they, especially communities and membership businesses. It’s like the ultimate business model right so it’s subscription-based. It’s like you know you’re getting your money on a subscription, that’s it’s really predictable and all the rest of it. But it comes with tons of other sets of challenges as well. So for example I’ve lost as many customers as I’ve gained right so like that’s a major kick in the teeth. If you look at it just you know just within that context right but the great thing is we’ve got some amazing customers and I’ve actually got more customers now than I’ve ever had. So like there’s pros and cons to every single challenge that comes with running a business. The content things interesting so what we try to do, not everything’s going to be ahit right, and I think you’ve got with the membership business you’ve really got to see the long game right. So if I’m doing a live training or a piece of content on sake of argument say email marketing right. And for whatever reason nobody really engages with it now. There’s that’s a piece of content that people will be referred to for years right now. That’s the way we create our content we try to create it so, it’s evergreen anyway. So I can be used next week, it could be used next month, it could be new used next year so I don’t think content is ever really wasted. I think you do have to be patient with your membership business and your community. You have to be patient, I think you can overwhelm people really easily and you’ve got to really manage your expectations. So for example if I go in the forum tomorrow morning and I don’t see any new content. I think a lot of people would feel like would honestly like be framed by that, why is none talking in the community, I better get some conversations going, start tagging people and all rest of it. I don’t actually, don’t care, I don’t worry about that. I’m like we’ve all got businesses to run this community is a small percentage of the time, that they’ve got to commit to everything that they do. I’m not here to force people to engage, if I’ve got something to say that’s valuable I will say it. But I’m at the same time I’m not like concerned about over. I don’t want to be overwhelming people with content. Either sort of something’s you have to be very well paced and really appreciate what people are doing on the other side. Just because I see a lack of communication doesn’t mean that’s what’s happening. They could have watched a video today, they could have done anything right. So you’ve just got to be really patient. I think that’s probably one of the top skills to have as a membership or a community owner or creator is you gotten be patient. You’ve got to see this longer sort of marathon type analogy which is you remember our memberships going to be around for 10 years. That’s really the target for us to be here for 10 years. So that means that doesn’t mean getting a thousand members in the first month that means getting a thousand members in ten years. So that’s that whole the whole philosophy of embracing slow and try not to worry so much about the day to day. And really just add as much value as you can but not overwhelm people at the same time

Ben:

Yeah that’s extremely important point to make. Which is one I hadn’t really even consider until you started saying it. Actually I can’t think of a single community where I spend most of my time. Now my time is spent a spent, I play a lot of sports or communities in part of sport, part of social media, marketing, in terms of friendship groups are almost a community in itself, thought the local area as even like working with charities. Ring. All those are all different communities, people need to be realistic in terms of actually, look people have so much going on their lives. Actually yeah, a small percentage of time will be in their your specific community. I mean if I tried divide myself up, in each of these communities I probably spend in probably less than 10 minutes a day. If that.

Chris:

Exactly. So you’ve got to really appreciate that I think you can really, I think it can be come across quite desperate or forceful or needy. And you know what the last thing anybody needs in their life is another needy person. So that’s really you just really be patient with it and just see. I mean, for example, I know we’ve got a big thing coming up in a week’s time. We’re going to be running a big challenge in our community. So right now, I’m just like really just I’m pulled back. I’m not really giving too much away. I’m not really been there a huge amount because I know what’s going to start getting busier again soon. So, I really want this important rest, isn’t rest is like one of the most important pillars and businesses so again. We want to kind of, practice what we preach. I think that’s just a big part of who I am and what I do. I don’t worry too much about it and when there’s not much activity and I just see the one the long play yeah.

Ben:

I think it’s really important it is a long-term game. People can quite easily be switched off, they don’t see things happening right away now. Something else that I thought of that was, I could see from someone who was trying to build a community. Is how do you actually build the start of that community? Because in how you get people to actually join the community because if you’ve only got a really small number of members it’s hard to create that engagement. Which in turn then would drive. Which will create shares and stuff. Which will drive more traffic to come, it’s almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more members you have it, the easier it is to keep a community going. Because you have more people to potentially engage further, so how would you actually take it from that really small thing. Or is there a minimum viable audience you need for a community?

Chris:

I’m not entirely sure. Someone that builds membership sites for a living might have something better to say on this. But what I would say you’d probably you do it definitely to have a hard core right. So we started with I think we had we had an audience of a few thousands on our Facebook group. And we’d been adding value to that Facebook for a long time. And we had about 50 or 60 people and we’d come to our meetups right. Not all at the same time, I think our meetups were about 20 people but over the course of that time is about 50 or 60 people. And then when we launched the membership, I think we had something like 25 people that bought straight into it. So, like we had a hard core then already we had paying customers already and they bought straight into and we built it. From that sort of core or like our hard core alpha audience was up from the start. So I think it would be varied, I think you would find it very difficult to kind of launch a membership site and then get like six members. And then try it you know I think that would be very difficult. I think you really want to launch it with us hardcore group of people that are really excited about it. So when someone new comes into the community or the forum they see like this. You know a lot of conversations happening and it’s busy and you know all that kind of thing.

Ben:

Yeah, I think it’s when those things isn’t it being almost like that self fulfilling prophecy. And the busier it is, the more engaging it looks. And the most people wouldn’t be part of things, I mean people want to be part of things that popular definitely. They don’t necessarily always want to be part something, that’s not very popular.

Chris:

Yeah exactly.

Ben:

Perfect and I think that sort of wraps up everything I really want to talk to you about communities. Because obviously, you’ve been doing some really great things with the community now .It’s s really interesting for me to sort of hear your insight, then are actually looking at what exactly is a community. You know what for some businesses it’s probably not worth the time you need to put into it works, for other businesses it’s an incredibly efficient actually an incredibly beneficial use of your time. And it’s actually, looking at your business itself and going do I actually need? Do I need this? And if you do, I think you need to almost go for it off all guns blazing actually. And it seems too much, put loads of time into and actually you will reap the rewards. But you can’t do it on an it’s not a six-month thing, you’re talking 12 months, 24 months ,whatever it is going forward.

Chris:

Well yeah, mostly captured that, I think there. But what I would say is that, this is, that I think comes back to something I mentioned at the very start, which is this is the business model. So it’s like I can’t just stop the community. I can’t go, it’s not like in my situation I’m not like. You know what we’re going to stop, it’s not working. It’s like, this is my business so it’s like you say. It’s like someone saying, I would start a consultancy, we’re going to give a shot six months of doesn’t work we’re going to stop. It’s like doesn’t work like that, this is my business. Some business is a membership business and therefore, my job is to recruit members to add value to the ones that we already have and make sure that we keep the ones that we’ve got. Right so, that’s really what it’s all about. It’s not rocket science. But the other thing that’s the kind of that’s missed often, this is that you have to want this type. It’s like every business, you start usually, it started with your own passionate drive. So someone’s saying to you need to build a community, my reaction to that would be well do I want it? Is that how I want to run my business? So like I think you’ve got to kind of get a balance between, what you need to do, what you love doing and somewhere in the middle. There’s a combination of that that equals what can I make money from it. So like I think the companies for every business or membership and community isn’t for everybody and nor should it be. Because it’s just like every business right, you start it because it’s something that you want to do something that you’re passionate about.

Ben:

No exactly, to summarise exactly what I want to sort of talk about when we talk wanted to talk about creating a community. So thank you very much for that Chris. Being absolutely brilliant. But before I let you go, I’ve got to ask you. What are some of your favourite or commonly used sort of buzzwords or phrases that out there, at the moment?

Chris:

My favourite or not so favourite.

Ben:

Both.

Chris:

Okay I did actually take some notes beforehand. Just to, so what I think the thing, without the danger of going on a rant here a bit, anything that makes my eyes roll. Like why my eyes are rolling at this. There’s a couple of ones, that make my eyes, well. And one of them is “your true authentic self” right. So that one makes my eyes roll at the moment, you know it just makes me feel like what does this even mean? This is marketing talk, people talk about true authentic self. Then the other one, that really annoy me just now as well. Look at I mean if you look at people’s LinkedIn profiles, I should really find the magic in these things. Self-made entrepreneur is the one that really gets on my nerves at the moment as well. People use that a lot and I don’t think there is any such thing as a self-made entrepreneur. Every single entrepreneur has needed someone like a mom or someone in their life an employee to help them to be where they are today. Even someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger would say that self-made entrepreneur is a complete fallacy. So you know things like that really annoy me. And get on my nerves anything like made-up words as well like anything like homepreneur or Dadepreneur or fampreneur. You know even the word entrepreneurs, even pompous as well so like really annoying me. This is the kind of things that really annoy me just now. And I think the one word this kind of comes to you all this so when people are talking about a true authentic self. This is the most recent one actually further from the Oprah Winfrey speech right. People there’s going to be a whole raft of people whole generation of people now. That are going to want to speak their truth right and, in my experience, people that want to speak the truth end up just actually, offending you. Not thinking about your feelings as well right. And that’s my own personal experience with this people. So I’m just going to speak the truth in other words, I’m just going to say what I think and which I don’t and I don’t care whether I offends you. Or not that’s the translation of that. And the one word I think that never grows old the one buzzword that never grows old never seems to fade and never seems to annoy me is the word empathy. And I think that is the key to being a great marketer and a great business person is to have the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. And think about what they feel and what they see and what they think. And that gives you the ability to be able to communicate at a higher level. Then that’s those are the kind of buzzwords, I see the so both sides of the coin. Of stuff that really annoys me, the stuff that people they’ve kind of lost, the I don’t know lose a direction. They’re going in and empathy is the thing that brings them back yeah,

Ben:

I love that, I love asking this question at the end of the show. Because it’s really interesting to see people’s other views on what is good buzzwords and what are buzzwords. Because buzzwords themselves almost completely misconstrued and misplaced. But there is always a couple, I think like empathy. The people don’t necessarily consider as a buzzword or a phrase. But actually it’s something that when you ask, it’s just a generally a good phrase. And a good term to use and it’s something that can never be understated really. It’s something that binds everyone together.

Chris:

Exactly I think it’s a great word and it’s probably not used enough. I don’t I just can’t see ever turning into one of those annoying buzzwords, even you know even content marketing is a buzzword. It’s misunderstood, it’s miscommunicated. People think they’re doing it when they’re not. And I think like you know so we could talk at length about that even. So, I think you’re right when it comes to these buzzwords that it’s the misunderstanding of them. The multiple definitions of the word this is really at the core of the problem I think is trying to clear up some these definitions.

Ben:

Exactly. I’m actually trying to help people understand look there. Is so it’s like communities and that’s what I want to bring you on talk about community. Because people just think of them create a community but what is the point? What is actually a community? What’s it about and I’m glad you brought the content marketing one. Because that that’s a high up on my list of I’ve got some good ideas for that one. Because they’re again, like you said, there are multiple definitions of it. There are multiple people talking about it in all different ways shapes or forms. So, I’m actually really, I got that one coming up very soon. That’s awesome and I think he’s definitely to cover that one. That’s one that I talk about a lot.

Chris:

Yeah that sounds like an awesome idea brilliant.

Ben:

Hey thanks so much your time Chris been absolute pleasure.

Chris:

Yeah, it’s been awesome man.

Ben:

Thanks so much.