Marketing Buzzword - Copywriting with John Espirian

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Is Copywriting A Dying Art? Are All Copywriters Content Marketers In Disguise? How Is Writing Technical Content Different To Other Forms Of Content?

On this week’s #MarketingBuzzword Podcast, Ben M Roberts speaks to John Espirian about ‘Copywriting’. As always the aim of the podcast is to debunk, demystify and bring back some meaning to the marketing buzzword.

John Espirian is the relentlessly helpful technical copywriter. A former Microsoft Mac MVP, he writes in-depth B2B web content to help clients explain how their products, services and processes work. John shares writing tips on his blog at

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Enough small talk . . . let’s talk “Copywriting”

Event Marketing Interview with John Espirian and Ben M Roberts

Ben: Hi John and Welcome to the podcast.

John: Hi Ben. Thanks for having me.

Ben: I’m so excited to get you on it. So nice to have someone. And the funny thing is that we’re doing this through Skype and yet we actually live really close to each of them we didn’t know this until really recently. It’s mad.

John: Yeah I know it was an introduction through McMaster’s masters wasn’t it. I think yeah, we probably only about 10 or 15 miles apart. So there we go small world.

Ben: You’re literally the closest person I’ve had on the podcast to me. It’s crazy. But no I’m really excited to get you on because you’re really well known and highly regarded in the field of copywriting. So for me as soon as we start chatting it was natural for me to say this is a topic that for me seems to be one that is getting more misunderstood as time goes on. Now some of the buzzwords we have talked about so far they’ve actually almost over time they become either more meaningful, I want to generally understand. But copywriting for me seems to be something that is quite misunderstood and because it’s particularly because of how it blending in with a modern as content marketing and I’ll be interested John to really pick your brains. What is the difference John between copywriting and content marketing or is there a difference? Or just going crazy over nothing.

John: Yeah I think there is a difference. I mean traditionally copywriting has always been thought of in the sales world.So if you think back to advertising and the kind of (inaudible) copywriting was associated with selling. Now it’s more associated with the influence. That’s what it’s really about. So influence doesn’t necessarily mean selling directly could be superb. it could be buy a product, but it could be try a service, it could be support a charity, it could be get behind a political campaign. So copywriting is writing that influences the reader. So sales is only really a small part of that. Content marketing I think is really positioning yourself to be the trusted voice in your industry by providing helpful content that helps people make good buying decisions. So it’s not, it’s not really the same as outright selling a tool. And it’s not even about taking direct influence straight away. Content marketing is often much more of a slow burn, it’s a slow building of trust so that when you need to hire that (inaudible) or design that logo or whatever it is you go, yeah that person talks a lot about that subject, I’ll trust them I’ll contact them.

Ben: Yeah, it makes sense. It’s that trust building and I can as indirectness so that misconception I guess is because copywriting as a term has been around for so long. And when it first came around it was almost see it appeared to be quite a narrow field and now almost the other field widened. People started calling it different things were actually copywriting is pretty much the same thing is. Do you agree with that sort of way of looking in it?

John: Yeah I think the scope is wide and because it’s now more about influence. Every business needs that online. When you’re creating content when you’re trying to build an online presence you know ultimately you want people to be interested in what you’ve got to say to make a connection with a reader to tell a story to get them to take action and so copywriting is necessary for all of those things.

Ben: But how is that different say than from content marketing or is it actually just a part of content and if it is just a part of content for example is copywriting purely looking at the written part so it is cooperating being its own standalone thing always like it used to be. Is it now a part of say content marketing and it’s a skill and a tactic within content marketing itself? Or would you still classed as its own separate entity?

John: Yeah I think, I suppose it’s fair to say that it’s a skill within content marketing but of course content marketing is so much broader than just writing a blog post that’s another misunderstanding. A lot of people have. You know content marketing could be a podcast like this. It could be a video. It could be a pamphlet that you put through people’s doors that’s so helpful that they decided to call you in by your service. So content marketing is far broader than copywriting alone I think. Yes copywriting has to be an element of good content marketing and if you don’t have good words then everything else isn’t really going to hang together however you present those words whether it’s through audio or video or anything else. Good writing has to be the core of that.

Ben: Yeah I agree with that. Yeah I think the content marketing is a much broader subject and actually then when you drill into it there are the ten aspects and someone said to me a day and Ben I think Content Marketing is dying out. I know when is it though? And then when? Well yeah, creating videos and podcasts and all that different stuff and I well what happens would you class sort of all the spinoff content that comes with that because really actually people are just creating one day content and it going off elsewhere people who are we seeing content creating new things or is it copywriting isn’t dying it’s evolving and it’s just changing. It’s becoming shorter for me instead of being the massive big giant book is becoming much shorter form and it’s like, it just a different way of presenting things now than how it used to be. Like you said in the old days it was purely like sales stuff where you’re writing ad copy, your writing product descriptions and now its kick. It can just talk cover multitude of different aspects. There is a marketing.

John: Yeah, that’s right for me I spend most of my time doing technical writing and I can see that is actually closer to the style of writing that you use for a lot of content marketing because Content Marketing works well when you are showing how things work without trying to make a pushy sale. You know you’re explaining how things work. You’re informing the audience you’re making them feel smarter or happier or somehow better about themselves and then the technical writing just lends itself perfectly to that. It’s much more kind of procedural and how to based content support content that doesn’t try to kind of put you in the face of the reader and say you know buy my product straight away. It’s much more neutral than that and not that is what builds that long term trust and kind of good impression about a brand.

Ben: Yeah. So would you argue John that technical writing. I think we’re both quite clear on this that the technical writing is very different to sort of your promotional writing and ends of that sort of although maybe you describe it as more disruptive marketing because I guess technical writing is where people meet or almost already be looking for a subject and you’re providing value on that whereas suddenly you’d argue is either Fluffy is the wrong word but an reachable cause it’s designed to get people enrolled people in three ways and disrupt their lives through Facebook Twitter or whatever they make and go oh I want to read about that. Whereas technical writing seems to be good. More towards people searching the things and then getting an outcome that would you say on that?

John: yeah I think that’s a good assessment of the situation. Its technical writing is much more neutral and more matter of fact about things so as I say it lends itself to the how to and in the way I’ve explained this in the past is to say that a technical writer. We’ll show you how a coffee machine works. They’ll give you all the how to information but the copywriter will evoke the feelings of you know the smell of coffee on a Sunday morning and make you want to buy the coffee machine so that’s another way of explaining the difference it’s technical writing is much more neutral copywriting has much more influence.

Ben: And it was thinking OK I won’t need to hire a copy or a copywriter of my business. Now what way would you look at saying to a company right. You either need a technical writer or you need another type of writer or even actually can the same person even do the same job. Do you have to do they have to be mutually exclusive of each other or can the same person do the same job?

John: I don’t think they need to be mutually exclusive. I do both roles although I lean more towards the technical writing role because I’m naturally more of a sort of explainer more of a teacher rather than someone who tries to get people to take action so that that’s just what suits me. But I think you can certainly do both. In terms of working out what people need. I mean you’d have to ask the question of what the end goal is. If you’re just trying to build trust and show yourself as an authority in the in whatever needs she work in then then technical writing is good for that because you can put out authority pieces long in-depth articles that show you know what you’re talking about. It’s well researched its clear and your voice of trust. If you’re just trying to sell more product or you know get more people onto a service then you’re going to need someone who maybe think it’s a bit more creatively can come up with catchy slogans or marketing campaigns for you in that case you’d want someone who is better copywriting as a site you can certainly do both.

Ben: So is it a big difference and pretty much a creativity aspect then if you are a technical writer are you expect it to be more creative than, I’d say an outreaching content market you expect or someone just writes different types of content you expect it to have more or less creativity and always be more straight down the barrel. So it’s like OK I’m writing you’re writing “How To Guide” you’re looking at sort of the information age the marketing funnel it’s boring content it’s just there tells you how tells you how the product work itself. Really important stuff but is seen as one that’s like oh you got to any creativity and no, suddenly to look and go actually know we need the even more creative because everyone else is doing the damn same thing.

John: I mean I wouldn’t necessarily say you need to be more creative but it’s certainly a different kind of creativity. So whereas a copywriter might come up with you know the next brilliant Guinness advert for example. Technical writer might have to look at a process and think of good analogies to make that simple for the reader. You know. How can I explain this better? They understand it more quickly?Or there’s no cause for confusion and that can take insight and it can take creativity to think of the best way of explaining how to do something in the fewest number of steps. The other thing you need to remember for a lot of technical writing is that it will apply you know to different audiences you know in different countries and so when you get to things like this content needs to be translated because we need to show how let’s say this remote control works in Asia then you can’t be going with kind of a florid creative writing style you need. You do need something that’s more matter of fact and it needs to be simple enough that everyone can understand it. So I think creativity is necessary in copywriting and in technical writing but it’s not the same sort of creativity.

Ben: Yeah I see that how you actually can adopt the creativity for different types of post different audiences acting in different stages the marketing funnel is to make it engaging and enticing and informative throughout and it’s actually being creative while it’s keeping at the core of what we’re trying to create.

John: Yeah that’s right and this isn’t to say that you know technical writing can still have personality can be still enjoyable to read. You know it doesn’t have to be in it you know sort of an aircraft manual. If you look at Dyson’s instructions for vacuum cleaners for example it’s kind of nice and simple and clear and enjoyable to consume. So technical writing doesn’t have to be you know stuffy and boring and the things associated with those 500 pages manuals from days gone by.

Ben: Well I love those 500 page manuals. You can put your monitor on top of them to make it higher you need in the last of those that are those (inaudible) with remember the yellow pages before it was so thick and everything and now it’s like it’s like a oh a five pamphlet with like saying this is really ridiculous. How keep my door open?Ridiculous!

John: That’s the thing though, I mean when you know go back to 2007 when the iPhone landed without a manual essentially without any manual. And that’s what people are trained to expect now. They’re trained to expect things that just work. And when they need help they need the answer quickly and simply they need it to be something that they could ask Siri or Alexa the answer for. So technical writing these days a lot of it is a lot shorter than it used to be and the fact is that you know those long boring manuals very rarely would ever get read. And so that’s why we don’t recommend taking that approach and keeping things a lot more you know shorter and bite science these days.

Ben: Yes it’s almost a case of it’s not creating all the information and just getting to people in one chunk. It’s about creating content that answers specific questions, specific time when it cost money. So if you’re a technical writer you’d be creating the content that people actually are asking and actually then ask in that specific question because that’s exactly what they’re looking for where they’re looking. How does this work? Why do I need this? What batteries does this require? How would this actually benefit my business? All that sort of stuff is specific what is there to get them they all when I find out about your business yes you can maybe handle a big pamphlet. Absolutely everything we do. But if they are asking a specific question you need to be able to answer that and you can answer in a short word possible but with resync in to the point. That’s a skill and an art in itself.

John: Yeah that’s it. I mean most technical writing these days is task driven and so rather than just dumping a set of features as you mentioned it’s much more about how do I do this. And you know Google is in business because it serves up better answers than everything else. So you need to create content in a way that will answer people’s questions and if you do that then that’s the golden ticket in search engine optimization if you can provide the best answer in a way that people are searching for. Your content will get found.

Ben: Yeah. No I agree with that. And that actually leads him nicely onto a point now I really  wants to raise you John. And it was, as a copywriter, so if you’re say a freelance copywriter you’re someone who wants to go and say you’ve just come out of university with say an English degree and you really enjoy writing and you think you know or I could lend myself to a business and actually write for them. I mean for example I’m hiring for a content writer at the moment and I’m looking at a lot people and they go and they’ve got English degrees which is great. Now how much should these people who are coming out of university or even going freelance as himself be aware of the rest of the marketing mix and in particular things like SEO should they, a copywriter just write the best quality content or should they actually really be considering all these things like SEO or is that not really part of their job they’re just trying to write back the easiest content. So where does that balance lay?

John: Well I think it would be remissive of me to say that you don’t need to know about SEO. I think realistically everyone needs to know about SEO if you want your content to be seen you know if there’s almost 3 million blog post you know shared per day, you want your content to be seen. That means you need to know about search engine optimization that doesn’t need mean that you need to write just for robots but you need to be aware of how your content will be indexed and what people are searching for. That would lead them to find the things you’re looking for. So it isn’t important. It is an important feature of content marketing and therefore it needs to be an important feature of the way you write.

Ben: Yeah. Now, how detailed though should it be? I guess the difference between an awareness and a real understanding so, should come if you’re writing technical content which is barely posted on a website. Should they, should the writer really be really aware of things like the ordering of the attractions, should they be aware of canonical to actually be aware of URL links. Is that something that a copywriter should know about? Like I know understand if they got that skill it’s an extra strength to their bow, but should it be a standard thing that they actually really understand the technical level of SEO on a page is or is that it makes people stand out and that’s actually a nice thing to have?

John: I don’t think those are the minimum table stakes that you should come you know come to the game with. So you should have a basic understanding and look to develop that over time. But I don’t think you should be expected to be an expert on day one when you’re starting out trying to be a copywriter I think that’s probably unrealistic because it does take a while to kind of learn all the tips and tricks. But there are some basic best practices you know the way that people find headlines engaging in what you put in the very first paragraph of your text and the way the content is structured so that you’ve got consistent headings and you don’t have things like walls of text you know you break up your content with relevant images and you put lists and other things to reduce the kind of cognitive load on the reader. These things are relatively simple to do and will give your content a boost. So I mean if you can start with things like that and then aim to try and learn more as you as you go along then I think that’s probably the best approach. You know a lot of people fail probably because they do maybe a bit too much preparation. I think if I just take one more training course or if I just read one more book then I’ll be ready. And sometimes those people will never be ready.

Ben: So someone paralysis by analysis saw you just over prepared and you actually get stuck. They give you so much information.

John: Yeah I think what it really comes down to is producing the best content that will appeal to the person who’s going to be reading that content. And if you could if you can do that then there’s a good chance that that content is going to be quite SEO friendly in which case you know you kind of score on both counts. But that’s not something to focus on is who’s who the ideal reader is. And that’s one of many questions that I asked before I pick up my digital pen and start writing anything you know that research component is actually the biggest bit of the iceberg feel like it’s you know its thing that takes the longest the writing itself, you know pressing buttons on the keyboard doesn’t necessarily take that long. It’s all the research and the questions you need to ask beforehand that takes all time.

Ben: Yeah you know, I agree completely. I know when I’ve been writing stuff myself. Did you spend two thirds three quarters of time probably researching in about quarter time writing when to get in a flow of writing that’s not overly difficult and I think as well people maybe a need to understand as well that actually you’re not. Every article I don’t think I’ve ever read an article and I’ve always been completely, completely 100 percent happy not looked at a couple of weeks later days or weeks later and maybe could a change that could change that. I think it is the case of look. Actually it’s right at the time. And next you can just keep learning that they think that there’s no two bits of writing or exactly the same and you can’t try to hold up the absolutely perfect piece. I think it’s almost unrealistic.

John: Yeah I think you’re right. The perfectionism can be a killer there because if you’re the kind of person who wants to get it perfect before hitting publish then you’re not going to publish very much. And the person who gets it you know 80 percent right is going to publish a whole lot more than you. And they’re going to be much more known than you are. Probably a lot more successful.

Ben: Yeah. And then something else that sort of got my break got my brain going from the start the conversation I said to you like someone said to me before the copywriting was dying out. Now I don’t believe that copywriting is dying out but do copywriter, is it dying out as an almost like a thoroughbred copywriter is a thoroughbred copywriter, I’m not saying you’re dying out John but is it becoming so is becoming much more niche now and actually are people then trying to create content across multiple platforms where they start not become thoroughbred copywriters anymore? Or is this space the guys who just focus on written content? Or is it right that copywriters are actually broadening her horizons and not becoming a jack of all trades so much but is it a big absolute master of one? Because the scope isn’t necessarily as wide. Are they right in spreading their wings a little bit that to try and find new avenues where the modern marketers with my economies are looking?

John: Yeah I mean in my case I do try to spread out. I don’t have one particular specialism and so I do different kinds of writing and for me that works for a lot of other copywriters it works too. But that’s not to say that someone who’s really good at classic you know direct response sales copywriting needs to look any further because those people tend to be paid the very highest amounts. I mean with stats the way they are you can see the conversion rate of a given web page if you look at the analytics and if you get the right copywriter to make even small adjustments to the way you’re phrasing your message because they’re such an expert that they know exactly what to say then that could lead to you know not point one percent more conversions from that web page but that might be worth a hundred thousand pounds. And so those copywriters that can deliver those kinds of results can get paid really high figures you know I’ve heard of twenty thousand pounds for a single web page writing. And in other fields, you just wouldn’t even get close to that. So, someone who is you know, plowing that furrow need to look any further and I’m sure if you look on places like LinkedIn and Google for direct response sales copywriter you’ll find a stack of them so I don’t think they’re going to be going anywhere, anytime soon.

Ben: Yeah I think it’s really good to say this, I’m a big fan of people that are really specialize in what they’re doing. Yes it’s sometimes more. You have to almost go freelance made to do this because I mean companies these days are on having the money, the time resources are really brought to almost bring in someone who’s just a technical copywriter. So almost if you want to work in-house then potentially a broadening of Horizons isn’t too bad but again if you are really specific what you do there’s a need for everyone out there and if you’re going by yourself and you are a copywriter in light of that direct response copywriters you could actually really carved out a niche and actually make some big money and do some really good thing because once you become an almost own your own space then actually the world is almost joys and you don’t have to branch I guess it is two of different ways of approaching work life and your and the way to the way you want to do business or want to just be involved in the workforce.

John: Yeah I started out in as a freelance copywriter in 2009. My aim then was definitely to niche down. And that’s the advice that I do still give to a lot of people. My aim was to write about IT on the Web and Internet service providers because that was my corporate background. And yet I kept being approached by people with different you know project briefs and I thought that’s interesting I’ll do that. That’s interesting I’ll do that as well. And so despite my best efforts to try and carve out a new, check it being approached about different topics and found them all interesting enough to write in and as a result I’ve you know I’ve covered lots of different fields so I mean if I were to give someone new and some advice now it would be to think about what your specialism is you know something that you’re good at and that you like doing and trying to apply that far if you can because you’ll then become known as you know that person who writes about engineering or whatever it is if you can but sometimes the world doesn’t work like that. And if customers come to you with different projects and they’re interesting enough then don’t beat yourself up about taking them on.

Ben: Yeah exactly I think if you’re if you’re going for your own niche anyway and people see you’ve got skills that they want you to apply them to another thing. I think that’s great because again you’re still being noticed for your niche. I mean it’s much easier to stand out when you’ve got a little niche than it’s to try and stand out against the guys being especially newer into the field though you haven’t been around that long you’re just going to go out alone you just come out of university you’ve just decide to jacking a job and just have a complete change of angle doing things for a long long long time and actually you’re trying to compete with them either in terms of getting a website ranked in terms of experience or in coffee. It’s just not impossible so you have to find your own little way that makes you stand out makes you, keep the shows that you’re unique for what you are and if people want that uniqueness then they will find you

John: Yeah and it makes you more memorable as well. You know if I were to you know if you were let’s say wanting a copywriter who worked only for no small to medium enterprises based in South Wales and you did a search and found someone specialized in exactly that, you probably go with them and probably remember them next time you needed someone like that. So it’s much easier to stand out as a specialist rather than the generalist it’s true, in my case I should say because I’ve worked on lots of different things. I’ve had some really big clients in the past it means that my Website is now really well ranked. If you look for technical writing services you find me on Google near the top there. So it means that I can become you know, be fortunate enough to work without having a specialism but for someone starting now I think that’s definitely the way to go.

Ben: Yeah I think yeah. As times change as things evolve and stuff looking for someone to come and new and try and knock you off the top spot there. It’s a difficult one but you’ve got to find your own space and I think that’s really important I think has actually been a lot of the theme of what we’ve seen over the podcasts for the last of just under 20 episodes or so the way, the way the world is changing and actually like it don’t stop moving always start off on your own needs foreign journalist thing and don’t be afraid to adopt because you’ve said about copywriting the world is changing around a change in copywriting isn’t necessarily what it was. Yes, a lot of the principles and the core attributes the same but the way it’s now applied the way it’s the way it’s evolving the way it’s now feeding into many other content types just even the ground when copywriting was really a thing when we first kicked off it was just purely written. And now we’ve got the podcast, we got transcripts, we got videos,we got all these different mediums going out there and actually you can be as specific copywriter who writes YouTube scripts. You could be a speaker who writes a podcast Stuff and you could actually, that is copywriting because it is really specific and it’s technical and actually you can carve out your own space in your niche any of those.

John: Yeah totally agree.

Ben: Yeah no I think it’s really important though isn’t it John. That’s why we want to get you on because you’ve been doing this for a good number of years now and you’ve become the really strong reputation in the field of technical writing and its how do people decide then? So you decided on technical richer how people decide whether they want to go down a technical route or whether they want to go down on most of the generalist group?. How do people go about making that decision because I assume it’s not something that you, Is it something that you just know you’re quite good at that type of writing or is it something that’s just trial and error or is it something that I know the way I write probably suits myself more technical writing?

John: Yeah I think I think you probably need to know within yourself. I guess there’s no harm in actually testing the waters and seeing what you’re actually good at. But you know if you read a lot of content then you can kind of identify the bits where you think yeah I get that I could I probably could have written that. And that’s the case for me with technical stuff. You know I always look for better ways of explaining things that’s just in my nature. When I was in the corporate world you know I was the guy who had the queue at the desk saying how this work? And I go Well you just do this that and the other. And they go Oh thanks a lot. So it was it was kind of inherent in me that you know it was just built into me that I was good at explaining stuff. But for others, they might have a more creative outlet where they want to be writing catchy headlines and slogans and marketing campaigns. And for them, copywriting classic copywriting where you know you know you’re hammering the influence angle that will suit them better. But I guess there’s nothing wrong in trying different routes and seeing what works for you. But it is important that not only you know that you are good at it but also that you enjoy it because otherwise, you know, what is the point of doing your job? You’ve really got to love it to stick at it. I think so try and find something that you are good at and that you like and then you should be fine whichever side of the fence you fall.

Ben: You just ruined my last question now John what advice you got we’re going to go in copywriting or develop their copywriting now. Now I feel like there’s no point me being here, it answers that question anyway, ridiculous. No but I think that was a really important point to end on it. It’s with copywriting is a specialism and is this is a skill and it’s something that you don’t just become very good. Yes you can have some real and natural in it but you’ve become skillful at it and actually you still get to enjoy it over time because it’s one of things the only ever gets better with age when you learn some do’s don’ts and you widen horizons you understand about SEO stuff over time you understand about things, understanding what the actual outcome of your content is because it’s quite easy. I mean I say like it’s quite flip but it’s quite easy to create content it’s easy to write stuff like stuff that you don’t understand the actual value that it’s providing that actually what is the point in what you’re doing it actually be would become really good copywriter and become really good at making or technical content, a general content whatever it is. Is you need to understand what the value is actually bringing is. So you need to understand is it converting people on the website attracting more people than it is a benefit in the business we’re writing it and that’s the stuff that only comes over time.

John: Yeah it’s a really, really important point you’ve just made that because you know if you if you want to go and get a website you’re probably going to get a web designer to do that because you don’t build websites. And if you need to get a logo done then you’re probably going to get a Logo designer to do that because you don’t make logos and you know if you need your accounts doing then you’re going to go to an accountant because you might not be that brilliant with numbers but if you need to write some content, well unless you’re illiterate then you can’t. You can’t write but it doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to write something that actually work well that will convert new customers or explain how stuff works really well and build trust so that’s what a lot of people miss out they think you know while it’s just writing we can do this bit ourselves. But often that’s the most important bit. So if you do have a budget for you know right for certainly the most strategic bits of content that you know may be in your brochure or on your home page. The stuff that really is going to be seen by a lot of people that’s where it is probably worth investing a bit of your time and money in getting someone who can help you with that.

Ben: Yeah and I think that’s a really strong point sort of end on that. Actually it just does everything you’ve said there is no point me regurgitating it because I think you’ve said it in a much better way than I could sort of put it. So I just want to say thank you for coming on stage on John it’s been so really insightful. This is full of knowledge actually how copywriting is evolving how it’s changing and the technical skills and what people need to understand about copywriting and how it is the same. It’s different to copywriting, how it’s evolving and not dying and actually how people need to understand the broader picture and it’s not just about putting a few words on a page it’s actually the effect it has around everything else.

John: Yeah it is. You know writing is your personality in written form. So just make sure you get it right otherwise, people form the wrong impression of you.

Ben: Yeah brilliant. And so just before we let you go I’ve got to ask you the question I ask absolutely everyone there to make sure because this is just a nice question to ask on. I mean we’re on the marketing buzzword podcast after all. It’s, what is the marketing buzzword you’re either loving or hating right now John? Come on, hit me with it.

John: I think probably the one, I’m not sure if there are any that I really love but the ones I probably hate would be influencer and I’m sure you must have had that point by now.

Ben: Oh that’s very right. Next on the bench. This was where he goes out right next to your episode. Now a little square.

John: Yeah because you know it’s so hard to define what an influencer is. And you know people think oh it’s not just Bill Gates or Richard Branson but actually you know an influencer could be anyone. An influencer could be my mom because she tells me what to do when I do it. I mean so it depends on the size of your audience. Yeah okay maybe it does but you know it’s much better to have a small audience who are highly engaged actually take notice of what you say and have these thousands of followers who don’t really give a stuff. So what is an influencer? I’m not I’m not 100 percent sure myself but it’s not a word that I think is particularly helpful.

Ben: Interesting, I think you have to tune in the next episode of the marketing buzzword podcast to find out about it.

John: I’m intrigued. Now I’m intrigued.

Ben: Oh no brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on today John. It’s been a really really insightful and really just like full of knowledge and ideas and it’s got my head going in terms of trying to understand the difference between copywriting and how it and how it generally works. Thank you so much for your time today John.

John: No worries Ben. You know it’s been really a great pleasure to be on. Thanks a lot